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Jesse Arnoldson:
Welcome to the MedMan podcast, a podcast focused on helping you level up your practice. I'm Jesse Arnoldson.

Jay Holmes:
And I'm Jay Holmes through interviews with some of the most successful leaders in the industry. We help uncover resources, tools and ideas to help you level up.

Jesse Arnoldson:
Thanks for tuning in and we hope you enjoyed today's program.

Jay Holmes:
Hey, everyone Jay here with the MedMan podcast in part one of this interview, we talked about H.R. specifically hiring. Now, when we get into part two, we're still going to be talking about H.R., but we're going to take a deep dive into people issues. One of our favorite topics. Jesse, Molly, thanks for joining us again.

Molly Ramsay:
Absolutely.

Jesse Arnoldson:
Thanks, Jay.

Jay Holmes:
All right, Jesse, you won the coin toss here. So let's start with you. What do you do with the person who keeps coming up as an issue? And before you answer that, I want our listeners to think about that person and really visualize them, because I know everyone has one. So let's have that person in your mind and Jesse going to answer that.

Jesse Arnoldson:
You know, if you can't think of somebody, maybe it's you. Maybe there's a group of people in the room talking about how you're the people issue. We all have one. And sometimes it changes and sometimes we have multiple. But, yeah. What do you do about them if they keep coming up and I'm not talking about the person, they're just like, hey, last week, you know, Jay had a bad day and was kind of rude to me. That's not what we're talking, we're talking about, you know, hey, what are we going to do about Jay? He keeps terrorizing his teammates and he's rude to customers. And, you know, we're just having a hard time with him. And that keeps repeating, the first thing that you've got to do is you've got to address it. You can't just keep kicking the can down the road. And I know that that sounds like Captain Obvious speak right there, but it's actually very common practice for people to just try their best to ignore the people problem. They just, maybe, maybe it'll solve itself. Or maybe we could just get past this week and we'll figure it out later. But you've got to take care of it then and there.

Jesse Arnoldson:
It's not doing you a favor. It's not doing the person a favor. And it's definitely not doing your team any favors by leaving that problem unresolved. So first address it, second, sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's truly a people problem or sometimes it's a Z problem. You've heard the term coined by Jim Collins. Great people. See, sometimes you've put a person in a position or giving them an assignment or put them right up against somebody else. That's just setting them up for failure. And so, first you address it. Second, you identify whether it's a person or a Z problem and add a plan and you carry it out. My leadership team, we all weigh in it. We keep each other from chickening out, you know, and or kicking the can down the road we plan and we hold each other accountable for it. Whoever's got to make sure they take care of that person. And we hold to it, you know, and if it doesn't get better, then it's possibly time to coach out, but no more times just by actually being brave and direct and doing so in a caring way about the person. You can resolve these issues. You just have to be courageous enough to actually jump into it.

Molly Ramsay:
And I, Jesse I absolutely agree. And I think that's just it. We're all human. We don't want to hurt people's feelings. You know, there's livelihoods that can be impacted by our decisions as leaders in terms of a decision to keep up or keep a person or move them on. And so that's really difficult. And I like what you said in terms of kind of your leadership team kind of holding each other accountable for giving each other the courage to have those difficult conversations. And if you handle it in a timely manner and your approach is in a professional humanity-like way. It can be done, those conversations can happen and be productive. And oftentimes people don't want to be the issues. And so you can help them kind of have that awareness or professionally grow as a result of it. It can actually be a really pretty powerful tool to either help them grow within the organization or help them move on and find a position that's a better fit.

Jay Holmes:
At the end of the day. We're holding them back by making a bad judgment in the beginning of putting them in a role that, for whatever reason, can't be successful. Expediting that process is difficult, but certainly I think best for everybody involved. Molly you said something about a tool and I want to double click on that a little bit here, we use a tool in our operating system, which is EOS. And can you talk a little bit about that kind of GWC, the values kind of analysis, and just walk us through how we use that to make sure people are in the right seat, the right fit.

Molly Ramsay:
So, Jay, you mentioned GWC, so GWC stands for gets it, wants it, has the capacity to do it. And using those three questions are posing those questions to an individual that you might be struggling with in terms of having some challenges with. If you pose those three questions, it reveals some helpful information, not only from their perspective. Also for you to provide some perspective to them and allow for you to be more solutions-oriented and how you're going to proceed and move forward. The other tool that Jay referenced was the People Analyzer or Values Analyzer. And this is a tool that can be really powerful in terms of just seeing if someone maybe isn't just a good fit for your organization as you have outlined your values. So what you do is you line out your values or write them down and then you identify an individual and identify, does this individual mostly demonstrate our core value of integrity or positivity or as Jesse mentioned, a cohesive team is one of their values. So you're kind of a plus-minus. Do they mostly demonstrate this value? Most times or are not consistently demonstrating this value and you kind of go through that list and see, do they have the majority of mostly they're demonstrating our values. If they do, then that's a really good foundation for you to invest time in this person, because when they're a good cultural fit, they're walking the talk in terms of your values and you want to invest time in this individual and try and make it work for them. If it's an individual who maybe is not consistently demonstrating their values, then you probably don't have a good fit from kind of a culture standpoint. And that's likely a reflection of this is it's probably time to move this person on because it's not a good fit from your organizational standpoint and likely not a good fit for them from their perspective as well.

Jesse Arnoldson:
Jay, we've used those tools that Molly just described in our leadership meetings. If we have somebody popping up on the issues list, we'll right person see it and we'll go through the values that people analyze there. And then we'll go through the GWC. And the way we do it is we actually, quietly write down our own votes and then we go up and put them up on the board and take the average. That gives us a chance to have a full discussion of the person. But what you know, what these tools like Molly was saying will give you is it'll give you a much more specific view of what's wrong. You know, instead of just saying this person is a great fit. Well, let me tell you what. What's really going into that? It's because they don't pay attention to detail. It causes a lot more work for the other people and it's causing people downstream from them to resent them. And that's the real issue. Or gives you something specific to coach on or something specific to start documenting in case you do have to coach out.

Molly Ramsay:
Jessie. you're absolutely right. So it kind of takes the subjectivity out of it and being more objective. And that's really I think when you, whenever you're dealing with any type of H.R. issue or quote-unquote people issue, is you have to take the emotion and the heart out of it and look at what is the underlying issue. And that's what we're trying to get to.

Jesse Arnoldson:
I've done it once Molly. You said you taken the GWC to the actual individual. We've done the people analyzer. If somebody is having problems, we've come to them and said, hey, rate yourself on where you're at, on our values. Let's talk about them. And quite often, they're a little bit, most people are going to be a little bit harsher critics of themselves. So that was pretty harsh. And then you can either help them judge more appropriately or jump on that. Hey, you rated yourself pretty low on cohesive team. Let's talk about what, what you have to do to get there. And that way they've helped identify that as a place they need help and maybe open up the conversation for coaching at that point.

Molly Ramsay:
Absolutely Jesse. And that's just it is these tools don't have to be used in a silo with one individual. So using it with the individual that you're trying to coach or as a leadership team so that you're getting feedback from multiple individuals can be very useful.

Jay Holmes:
And wasn't it at some point in our process that it got really real when we did this out in the open to each other and radio each other, which, I mean, you want to put this on hyperdrive, that's one way to do it. And it's just full transparency. This is how everyone else sees you. And oftentimes that's a wake-up call because the true intention isn't to not be part of the team. And so to hide behind a curtain and think you're doing something when everyone else views is not, it's actually relieving process to say, oh, great, like if I could do these two things better, I'm going to be that much more engaged and supported by my team who's not going to want that. But it certainly takes a certain amount of maturity to take that criticism and grow from it.

Jesse Arnoldson:
A benefit that's come from that Jay from that exercise is that when then I've turned around and done it to somebody else, I can I've used that to empathize with them like, hey, I've been on this side of it and I've been voted low on one of our vote values. And it's been something I've had to work on. So you're not alone in this. It doesn't make you a bad person. It just makes you human. And I'm here to help you get past it.

Molly Ramsay:
You're definitely demonstrating a level of vulnerability and you're asking them to be vulnerable in these types of conversations. Walk-in their shoes.

Jay Holmes:
Which is the first step to real growth. Being vulnerable and admitting that you're not perfect, which for some it's harder to admit than others. That's for sure. So let's, let's just kind of throw out a question, not too specific person, but really just give a story or two if you have one at the top of your head, of what are some of the most challenging people issues and maybe what would you do about it?

Jesse Arnoldson:
I think some of the hardest things to critique are sometimes the things that make the person who they are. Every one of us has history. Every one of us has stuff from childhood through teenage years, through adulthood that make us who we are. And when we're told that those things are destructive or annoying or whatever it is, that's cut deeply. And so they have to provide that critique is very, very difficult. And so Molly and I know this about Molly, but we spend a lot of time thinking about our message, thinking about the person trying to tailor our feedback in such a way that doesn't leave them in shambles. But rather helps them identify an area for growth and give them hope to get better. And I'm sorry, I have a hard time sharing a specific example. But that's it. When you're having to cut into what you know, what makes somebody them.

Molly Ramsay:
Jay I think when you've got someone who's got the experience that really just is not a good fit from an organizational standpoint, that really is probably the most challenging situation for us. And how do you, can you make that making the decision on if you can make it work and the existing position and the existing organization or do you move them on? And it's was mentioning it can become really personal when you're looking at it from a personality standpoint or just kind of our natural tendencies. And I can think of a situation where it was just personalities or clashing and for whatever we know, anything that we attempted to do it's just not going to work. And so what we had to do as an organization is just help that person move on. And we really took a proactive approach to doing so, so that we didn't just move them out to help them move on to an organization in a position where they were going to flourish, because we had a tremendous amount of respect for them as a professional. And they had a lot of value in terms of the position and the dynamics of the existing team. It just was not a good fit.

Jay Holmes:
Thanks for that Molly. I think it speaks to the process again, as long as you're going through the process and you feel good. You're not going to hit the home run all the time. You're not going to you can't always foresee how that person is going to interact in a certain environment. But you can get a good sense of is it the type of quality of person that your standards meet? And certainly, that helps then kind of carry on the energy and the transition to someone else. It's a whole lot harder to hire someone that you're not very fond of and ultimately don't want to put in more energy once they leave. And so getting right in the beginning, certainly, there's pitfalls, but acting professionally and respectfully through the whole process, certainly makes it easier.

Molly Ramsay:
Just to put a finer point on that Jay, I think that's just an underlying message here with the whole hiring process, as well as handling people issues and coaching, as if as an organization that as a manager, you've got to just handle it all with the utmost professionalism and respect for these individuals, because the world is pretty small and health care, in particular, is very small and you just never know when you're going to cross paths again. And they might not be a good fit for your organization or for that position but maybe down the road, you have a position where they might be perfect or, you know, of another practice out there that they could be a good fit for. And you just want to uphold their reputation as well as the organization's reputation.

Jay Holmes:
Absolutely. Yep. Very good point. OK, well, I think it's a good time to wrap things up. Molly, Jesse, thank you both so much for hanging out. I am confident that our listeners got a lot from this. So thank you both. Listeners thank you all for tuning in today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Molly and Jesse for the show notes, transcripts, material from the show and really everything else MedMan does head over to our website at MedMan.com. Remember, we'll be here twice a week sharing insights, ideas and tools to help you level up your practice. Thanks again for joining us.

Jay Holmes:
Thanks for tuning in the MedMan podcast, we hope you enjoyed today's featured guest.

Jesse Arnoldson:
For the show notes, transcripts, resources and everything else MedMan does to help you level up. Be sure to visit us at MedMan.com.

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